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Stating Their Case

Senecas Oppose Cigarette Tax Collection At State Hearing

By Sharon Turano sturano@post-journal.com
POSTED: October 28, 2009

Article Photos


NEW YORK - While the New York State Police are worried about a confrontation if the state tries to block the sale of tax-free cigarettes on New York's Indian reservations, local Seneca Nation of Indian officials say the ongoing discussion could be an opening to establish a lasting peace.

The state held a hearing Tuesday called by state Sen. Craig Johnson, D-Nassau, to discuss tax collections on sales made to non-Indians on reservations and why they have not been collected, and busloads of Seneca Nation residents attended to discuss why they oppose such collections.

Previous attempts to collect state taxes on reservation commerce drew protests from Senecas, who said further attempts will lead to them defending treaties the nation has made with the federal government.

"We will never allow the state to tax our commerce," said Tribal Councilor J.C. Seneca during the hearings. "No other government has the right to interfere. We will fight to uphold these rights now and forever.''

Peter Kiernan, Gov. David Paterson's chief legal counsel, said a New York State Police threat assessment predicted the cost of enforcing tax collections on cigarettes sold on reservations could approach $2 million a day - a figure based on the state's experiences when it tried to impose cigarette taxes in 1992 and 1997 - and fears collection could lead to violence and possibly escalate into a ''military problem.''

There is another way, however, Seneca said.

"It's a chance to work to establish lasting peace," Seneca said about what could happen if the state chooses to work with the Senecas rather than start a confrontation. He said the nation has its own Import/Export Commission with a stamping agent, sales prohibitions to minors and a regulation that does not allow for more than 49 cartons of cigarettes to be sold per transaction. He said the nation has worked with U.S. and local law enforcement and generates funding for the state from its sales as customers to its land have money left to use off-territory.

Seneca said the state has created its own problems by increasing taxes and driving consumers away from taxable sales.

"It's true your citizens don't pay your taxes," he said about those who look elsewhere for tax-free sales. Despite that, he said, the nation will never be New York's scapegoat.

"You have a tax problem," said Seneca Counsel Bob Porter. "It's just not us."

When Sen. Martin Golden asked if an agreement could be negotiated to deal with the tax issue, Seneca said agreements have already been made and referred to existing treaties. When asked if Senecas would resort to violence, Seneca said he does not condone violence. He said, however, when tax collection attempts were previously tried, state police "invaded" Seneca territory.

"What would you do if somebody invaded your neighborhood?" Seneca asked.

He said Senecas cannot be forced to become tax collectors for the state, but rather have been promised "free use and enjoyment" of their lands by the federal government.

While some senators at the hearings agreed with the Senecas' stance, others called for tax collections to begin in spring. They reported New Yorkers have had to suffer from high taxes and are facing budget cuts while a revenue source remains uncollected. Golden, a Brooklyn Republican, said he favors a ''drop dead'' date to start charging the tax whether there is an agreement or not.

Gov. Paterson's representatives speaking at the hearing, however, said once state police costs are taken into account to quell unrest from collections, tax collections would not be financially beneficial.

If the state chooses to forego the tax collection efforts, Seneca still may have a request toward the goal of respect: changing the decor of the governor's office.

Seneca told of how he feels each time he enters that office and sees decor featuring a Native American being killed. He questioned how senators would feel if Senecas decorated their leaderships' chambers with a Native American killing a white man and then invited senators to come in to discuss mutual respect.

"We delivered a message. We needed to provide perspective,'' said Seneca later about the hearings he said went well.

Seneca maintaining sovereignty needs to be kept when discussing issues, including taxes, with Senecas.

"It makes us who we are today," he said.

 
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View Comments: | 1-24 | Post a comment
politicallyincorrect
10-31-09 12:25 PM
by the way, now I want to know what this decor is in the governor's office that is offensive to the Indians... anybody know?

wepaytaxes
10-30-09 9:36 AM
I agree that governing bodies often make poor financial decisions with our tax money. But at the same time, why can't Natives pay taxes? I didn't steal anybody's land. My family hasn't stole anybody's land.

rekrap
10-29-09 2:26 PM
Seneca sovereignty is only part of the issue here. Certainly they have their historic rights and agreements that have been hashed and rehashed. Leave a sleeping dog lie. That is the specific Seneca nation concern. The bigger picture for all of us, the crux of the issue, is why and by whom is the “tax” even being visited. Only a blind man (no pun intended) can’t see that it’s all about self-importance, egomanism, not being able to make the tough decisions to cut fat from the good ole boy life and far too status quo bureaucracy. Lord forbid they may have to do without a couple of staffers, or a limo ride or a lunch/dinner expense accounts, or wasteful party cronyism pet pork projects. Democrats and Republicans are equally guilty. Does the government exist to serve the people or do the people merely exist to serve the NY bureaucracy’s gluttonous appetite? Some fool once said “and that government of the people, by the people, for the people”. Or NY makes him now look like a fool.

OldDude
10-29-09 1:00 AM
Living near the Tuscarora Nation all my life I have come to respect their Tribal Government and the People. Since they have opened their businesses I have seen an overall improvement in the homes, school and roads in their nation. The individual businessmen have given much to their NYS neighbors as well as the Tuscarora Nation. I support the treaties our government made with them. Leave them alone !! I do like the comment about cutting our elected officials salaries and all the extras they get. Starting with ex-presidents. They should not get paid anything when they are no longer president. I sure don't get paid for not doing a job. Do you?

Highlander
10-28-09 9:28 PM
I agree with DanFal..... Amen and let us keep the peace!!

Pipelilner
10-28-09 7:44 PM
I say just circle the wagons, call a pow wow with the Seneca brethern. Cut your fingers, swap a little blood so you become brothers in the nation, then let the Senecas annex Chautauqua County. Won't have to pay taxes nor worry about those pesky East of the Hudson politicians or do nuthin West of the Hudson politicians. Shoot, you'll get your gas and cigs for less too! If I was Senator Craig Hudson of Nassau, I'd be keeping my scalp out of Seneca Nation territory.

politicallyincorrect
10-28-09 4:21 PM
1) I do feel that their keeping gasoline 10 cents under what the white man sells it for is quite the racket, but we're not forced to buy it. More power to 'em, if it's still selling! 2) Indians are not supposed to be tax exempt on purchases off their reservation, UNLESS the item is DELIVERED to their home by the seller AND they fill out the proper form. Under NYS law, flashing your tribal ID card or giving the clerk your roll # does not qualify. 3) I'd like to know...is NYS obligated to pave, repair, and plow their roads for free as well? 4) I am ALL FOR making Long Island its own special state/territory..."rekrap" you are spot on...that would solve MANY problems in this state. 5) This whole friggin' country is upside down. Nearly everything is backwards from the way it should be. I respect the Native Americans for their ability to scare the government into backing down. The rest of us Americans need to stand against our governments' stupid decisions with such convict

bjc9400
10-28-09 2:53 PM
my ancestors emposed slavery and justice was served by hangings and burnings, does that mean i should still have those rights? Times change people- Get used to it! Non-Natives should be paying tax on native american land as much as they do in any city or state.... dont worry we are still dumb enough to drop our money in your casinos! hmm which we are paying tax on! guess this is only one sided!

Brent1
10-28-09 2:51 PM
I could be wrong but I think the Indians do not pay US taxes anywhere and the land they have is considered another country... such as japan, china, etc...

CommonSense
10-28-09 2:40 PM
I do understand what a sovereign nation is, I'm just making a point. Everyone says leave the Native Americans alone, yet nobody points out the double talk that comes with it. I don't feel it is ok to advertise "tax free" gasoline, but then not pass that savings on to the consumer. I am not a politician, nor do I have any desire to be one. People say "we stole their land", I didn't steal anything and unless you can accurately trace your ancestry back 600 years, who knows what side any of us belong on. In fact, I have Native American ancestry back to my grandparents, but that doesn't mean I can't see both sides of the issue. Since I haven't read the specific treaty and I don't know how many of you have (porbably not many) I don't know what the original intent of the treaties were, but I don't think they were meant to not have non-Native Americans pay tax on items purchased on reservation lands. I think they were intended to not tax the Native Americans.

cares2much
10-28-09 1:14 PM
And, how does it make sense to keep spending all this money fighting about it??? We need a revolution!!!+

madman
10-28-09 12:56 PM
Commonsense, do you understand the meaning of sovereign nation? I don't think you do. The natives can charge whatever they want for their gas...what do you care...it is still cheaper than what you pay now. And how profits are distributed is not your concern unless you are native. Do want to live in a country that does not honor their treaties or agreements?

As for bjc9400, instead of drop dead date how about that politican just drop dead.

yankee
10-28-09 12:46 PM
oops, *stole*

yankee
10-28-09 12:43 PM
Well I agree with all of you with the exception of "CommonSense", this must be a person who doesn't care that we stoll their land, screwed it up, and now want to break treaties that our four-fathers set in place to try and right a wrong. How do you look at your self in the mirror? If I didn't know better, I would say you are a polotician; disguised as a regular citizen on the PJ forums. If not, you have the makings to be.

CommonSense
10-28-09 11:32 AM
Since the Senecas are sovereign and don't want to be forced to collect taxes, due to their treaties, will they also deny any monies that come from the state or federal governments? If they are selling "tax free" gas, why is it only approxiamtely 20 cents cheaper than the gas off the reservation and not 49 cents cheaper, since that's the amount of tax imposed by NYS? Is it ok the jack the price of gas, and their profit, because the overall price is cheaper? Why shouldn't non-Native Americans be taxed on their purchases on the reservation? I wish no one was taxed, but that's not going to happen anytime soon. NYS doesn't want to collect from Native Americans, just from non-Native Americans buying on the reservation. This isn't a fight for Native Americans rights, it's a fight to line the pockets of the business owners on the reservation. If this was about helping all the residents on the reservation, you'd see better living conditions throughout their communities.

RADCON
10-28-09 11:17 AM
to governor incompetent and the rest of the incompetents: leave these tribes alone. they should resort to violence. you want more money? try cutting all state pols salaries by 50% for starters and go on foodstamps. bunch of idiots running the dang show! fire em all!

sickofnys
10-28-09 9:17 AM
"They reported New Yorkers have had to suffer from high taxes and are facing budget cuts while a revenue source remains uncollected." Revenue source remains uncollected! Doesn't that just say it all about how NYS politicians look at things. How about trying NOT SPENDING OUR MONEY!!!

bjc9400
10-28-09 9:10 AM
I like the Drop Dead date, idea.

dirtydeeds
10-28-09 8:48 AM
something to think about.what if the senecas put up toll bridges on the thruway or 86.hey it's there land.New york does it so it must be ok. I'm not indian or do i smoke but i do side with them.

tireman
10-28-09 8:40 AM
Just a clarification. When the Senecas make an off territory purchase, they present a card that shows that they are exempt from taxes and they do not pay the taxes.

rekrap
10-28-09 8:33 AM
First of all, notice where the two Senators pushing the case are from! Yep, Nassau and Brooklyn - i.e. NYC. The root of 99.99999% of the State's problems anyway. Neither has probably ever been West of the Hudson. And any Senators/Legislatures from West of the Hudson even remotely agreeing with them, SHAME ON YOU. We'd all be a lot better off if the Seneca Nation extended from the Hudson to the PA border in the West. Or if we had any Senators/Legislatures from Western NY with any backbone there would be a movement afoot to SECEDE and create the new State of NY from the Hudson to Western NY, bording Erie County PA, and leaving East of the Hudson to their own misery creating the new State of Eastern NY or more speifically the State of Chaos, so they can continue their shameless ways and total disregard for the poor citizens who's back they ride to keep their bureaucracy purring along with the increase taxes and fees and never cut any expenses mentality.

tylerstwit
10-28-09 7:51 AM
Bravo DanFal! Why do they always go after these people after they overspend? BECAUSE NY state is the greediest state in the union, that's why. Paterson hasn't learned yet but he'll join the others in the corner soon as well. HONOR INDIAN TREATIES

madman
10-28-09 7:36 AM
DanFal, you couldn't be more correct. RIGHT ON!

DanFal
10-28-09 3:06 AM
First, the Senecas do not live on reservations. They live on the land they have always lived on, and since their treaties with the U.S., it is considered sovereign territory. It is their country, not ours. And why is it that this tax issue is never looked at in reverse? When Senecas, and the other 5 of the 6 nations, make purchases off their territory, they don't demand that the taxes be sent to their governments. I say leave the natives alone. We already have broken every treaty we have signed with them, then flooded the Seneca's best farmlands even though a treaty was in place which should have prevented such an occurrence. The natives should NEVER trust any statements made by New York State or the federal government. In a relatively short 350 years we have destroyed a large portion of the land the natives lived successfully upon for thousands of years. And we still aren't tired of taking, taking, taking from these noble and historically significant tribes.

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